Gen. Kayihura speaks out on Museveni, life after Police

INTERVIEW 

The former Inspector General of Police (IGP), Gen. Kale Kayihura, withdrew from Kampala when he was sacked by President Yoweri Museveni in March 2018, after nearly 13 years at the helm of the Police.

The 69-year-old sat down with Umaru Kashaka for an interview on a wide range of issues at his country home in Katebe village, Kashagama sub-county, Lyantonde district. Below are excerpts.

Q: Your critics say your tenure as IGP was characterised by a lot of torture allegations and brutality against the opposition. What do you have to say about that?

A: Well, it is not me to judge, but what I can say is that I left the Police force better than I found it and I left policing better than I found it. I found a Police force that was extremely weak in terms of numbers, equipment, ideology and stature. There was this sense of hopelessness.

They (police officers) were in tattered uniforms and they could even fear themselves. So, let us not have selective memory. I have no problem being criticised for things that did not go right, but at the same time, it’s not correct to ignore the positive things that happened during my tenure. Even when you look at crime, it went down, as an indicator that something good happened apart from building the capacity of the Police.

And I remember even the President saying: “One big contribution of Kale is that he brought the Police closer to the people. That’s number one, number two, he enticed different professionals into the Police.” I can tell you right now there is a record number of graduates than those I found, especially scientists, because I was trying to use scientific techniques and tools to manage crime.

Those who are now in charge of the Police are people who either I recruited or developed. They include Andrew Mubiru, who is now acting Police director of forensic services.

And I believe when you talk about brutality, it’s in the context of policing political events. But to be honest with you, my method of policing was engagement to a fault and I was always provoked.

You wake up to be told Dr Kizza Besigye has parked his vehicle in the middle of Kampala Road or at Mini Price shopping centre in downtown Kampala to attract crowds and cause trouble. Even this Nalufenya detention facility, which you people talk about and say there are snakes, crocodiles, it was the most open….

First of all, it (Nalufenya) was a Police station, only that we decided to use it when we were fighting terrorism as a coordinating centre because of its infrastructure. So, I don’t know where these stories come from. It’s just malicious.

But the opposition says you were just playing politics as IGP…

Politics? What do you mean? Mine was to protect the business community of Kampala and if you talk to them, they are full of praise for me because Besigye would come, park in the middle of the city and the bayaaye (hooligans) come and steal things.

I remember the last challenge that I had were these murders of women in Katabi and Nansana (in Wakiso district). I camped in those places and by the time I left, for the whole year, no such incident had happened in Nansana, because we had managed to get the culprits working with the people. So, I don’t know where this thing of creating me into a monster came from because I was close to the people.

Kayihura at his farm in Lyantonde.

So, what do you say to those who say you were being used by the President to fight the opposition?

But being used how? Goodness! Of course, I was deployed by the President, but the President does not deploy you to use unlawful methods. He expects you to enforce the law, because the Police is a law enforcement agency and that’s what I was doing.

I was using soft methods to minimise inconvenience by trying to preempt… This thing of saying I was involved in politics, I had infiltrated them (the opposition), but I was doing it so as not to use the hard methods of tear gas and anything else to inconvenience law-abiding people and create a problem for the image of the Government, because that is what they wanted. Besigye should know what he was planning.

Those kids he was using, I would mobilise them against him so they would disappear when he thinks they are going to cause problems in town. It’s the same thing with this man Bobi Wine (Robert Kyagulanyi), but he doesn’t know. You are lucky to have this old man (Museveni), really. He is a teacher, just like Mwalimu Julius Nyerere was in Tanzania. You look at his (Museveni’s) methods… These other political parties are a dangerous destruction from the path that we took.

And you think he is enjoying it? You know how much pressure he is under; he doesn’t sleep. You will only know after he is no longer there (in power). That’s when you will know what value he was for the country. So, for me, you better use this opportunity, this stability. Look at Tanzania or Kenya; the developments they have are because of stability.

Okay, there are situations which require antagonism and where you go to war, but not this time. This time, whatever disagreements there are, can be discussed. Norbert Mao (Democratic Party president) used to say all kinds of things, but now he’s minister of Justice and Constitutional Affairs. So, this means there’s no objective basis for antagonism.

These problems we have of corruption, corrupt people, they are being handled; there is a mechanism to handle them. So, let us operate within that peaceful framework. Let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

If given a chance to be IGP again, what would you do differently?

IGP? That is hypothetical. Why IGP? 

Well, general, never say never. If given a chance to be IGP again, what would you do differently?

What I would do is to continue where I left off — community policing. The State must be anchored in the people. That is our strength and that is what I was striving to do.

So, were you surprised when you were fired by the President?

I am a disciplined officer. That’s number one. That’s the tradition I come from. Number two, the President is the one who appointed me. That’s how it works in our system. I never applied for the job. I never even in my wildest of dreams thought I would ever be in the Police, let alone its head.

Didn’t you find it hard to adjust to ordinary life?

The biggest problem was you in the media who were spewing nonsense. Otherwise, for me, I withdrew here (in Kashagama) and started farming. As soon as I was removed, I came here and got underground water and started farming.

And you kept a low profile, huh?

What low profile? I lived a normal life. I mean, okay, if you are talking about how I adjusted, of course, what is difficult for me is becoming an individual. It’s difficult when you have been part of the struggle for 41 years.

What is a bit difficult for me is to feel that I am an individual, because I still feel I am part of the struggle. If I can produce food for you in the town, isn’t that public service? So, it kind of helps me psychologically to know that I’m still in the struggle, after all, I’m implementing the Government programme of value addition.

Kayihura makes yoghurt at his factory in Lyantonde. (Credit: Miriam Namutebi)

You were recently quoted in a local newspaper as saying you were feeling isolated from the Police…

No, I didn’t say that. That would be ridiculous. I am not isolated. I am always invited and you are always reporting (seeing) me at these functions. I had been to Mubende (district) for National Resistance Movement’s 39th Liberation Day, I was in Kyotera for the 44th Tarehe Sita anniversary — I am everywhere. And where I go, they want me to speak.

So, those (who reported that I feel isolated) were mischievous like these people who saw me last month walking from Kabira Club in Bukoto (Kampala) going for another meeting due to traffic jam and they cut out the escorts who were behind me, just to appear like things are so bad for me that I am now a street preacher (laughs). I laughed. Goodness! I had a vehicle, but because of traffic, I said, “But why can’t I walk?” And I walked.

How have the sanctions that were imposed on you by the US and UK affected you?

But how do they affect me? I have nothing in America or Europe or even outside Uganda. It is this (points at his house) that I have and maybe my home in Kisoro, because even the house I’m staying is mortgaged. But why don’t these Americans look for real people to sanction? Forget about me.

If they are honest and it is not about blackmail, why don’t they sanction these people killing children in Palestine, if they are moralistic? What about those who are responsible for the war in Iraq based on lies? What about Libya? Let’s have this conversation if we are serious… I’m not saying I’m the best, but really, am I the worst human being in Uganda to sanction? Really? Kayihura?

So, I am just a victim. I happen to be a victim. Like somebody said, I was a low-hanging fruit. They were after the President, but they can’t get him, so they get some of us, the low-hanging fruits. I am a patriot. I want you to investigate me and see what I have.

What was the biggest challenge you faced in your military career?

Well, the biggest challenge was what happened to me at the end of it (being arrested in June 2018), which I don’t want to talk about. I became a victim of opportunists and self-seekers who, for reasons known to themselves, decided to target me, but thank God, the criminal justice system in the Uganda People’s Defence Forces; and again that also speaks to the strength of the system, established that these were just hogwash. These were just lies, and obviously, the President got to know the truth.

What was your life-changing moment?

My five-year experience in Luwero during the people’s war of resistance is what drives me up to now because it deepened my conviction. Winning over the people and turning them into a weapon to solve their problems is what we, the cadres, did under President Museveni in the bush. That is where strength lies. I’m already a people person, but to turn that into an ideology of struggle and governance....

So, you are proud when you look back at your 41-year military journey?

Not just proud; I am energised and I feel the 41 years I spent in the army were not in vain. People try to vulgarise this programme of crime preventers, which I initiated with the President to solve crime, but these few policemen you have around cannot solve the problem of crime, even in countries like America, Europe, where they have cameras and what-not, they still rely on crime preventers, what it (the idea of crime preventers) means is participation of the people in solving their problems. That’s the philosophy. That’s the ideology.

What was the turning point in your military career?

When I went to the bush, I had never had a career. I have always been a missionary, because even when going to the bush, we were on a mission. We were not looking for jobs and I have never looked for a job. Even here (in Kashagama), I am struggling; I am not employed by anybody. It is tough, yeah, but it was also tough in the bush.

How tough is it here?

It’s very tough because of the hostile credit market and because of the short-term (loans). I mean, you are putting up a banana plantation and to be able to take a bunch of matooke weighing 30kg or 60kg to markets like Owino and Nakasero takes three years, a minimum, yet the banks will give a grace period of six months to pay back the money, if you are lucky.

So, what we need is patient capital, which does not exist here and that’s how other economies have developed. We also need some infrastructure, because, like now, I am making Katebe yogurt, but the power is so erratic. I have asked for a transformer, not only for me but also for the community, because we are trying to do value addition, including milling maize to get flour.

The transformer I have here (points at it) is of 20kV, when we need at least a 200kV. Sometimes, a power surge comes and destroys the equipment. Now, who will pay for that? And the bank which is asking you to pay is not bothered about all this. We also need irrigation systems.

So, how have you found life in retirement in Katebe? 

Well, I enjoy it. I love being in the countryside and whenever I’m forced to go to Kampala, I feel terrible, because I don’t like to go there. I am happy here. You look at the environment; how do you feel? There is no pollution. So, I could add another 10 years to my life lifespan, but more importantly, I feel good, for example, when I make yogurt and people appreciate it. Families say, “Oh, our children want Katebe yogurt. They say it is good.”

You retired, but you still belong to the reserve force, huh?

No, I am beyond being on the reserve force, but I can be assigned anything and if I am not assigned, I assign myself (laughs). Like now, this (meeting with you) is an assignment because I am diverted from my lusuku (garden) and it’s good. What pleases me is that our youth was not wasted, and when I look back, I’m happy that the country that I will leave behind is on a solid foundation and our children will not have to run...everybody is coming here, including refugees.

When you say you can be assigned, does that mean you are available for deployment?

We, cadres of the struggle, ours is a lifetime commitment. So, it was in that context that I said I can be assigned anything.

Any regrets?

(Sighs deeply) Well, you know, the late Archbishop Desmond Tutu advised us that ‘never regret whatever wrong you may have done because it doesn’t help you.’ You only remember mistakes from the point of view of learning from them and becoming either a better person or doing things better.

Inner peace

How would you like to be remembered? 

If I am lucky to be remembered, fine, they can remember that I tried my best, but the way I look at it is that essentially you are part of a struggle, and many better people than me should be even remembered and I feel sad when we don’t remember them. That is why, for me, I don’t even think about it. I think the satisfaction is from within.

It’s a bonus if people appreciate you, but what I have discovered is that the greatest satisfaction is from within. The most important accountability is to yourself. I have inner peace because I know I did my best. I’m not the best of human being, but I know I did the best I could, irrespective of whatever anybody says.

If somebody says something good about me, oh, that’s a bonus. But the critical thing is that you account to yourself, and when I look at my adult life, I think on the balance of things, I am at peace.