The succession debate is good - Gordon
Jul 18, 2008
BRITISH High Commissioner Francois Gordon is leaving Uganda after a three-year service, and having clocked retirement age. He talked to <b>Felix Osike</b> on a number of issues. Below are the excerpts:
BRITISH High Commissioner Francois Gordon is leaving Uganda after a three-year service, and having clocked retirement age. He talked to Felix Osike on a number of issues. Below are the excerpts:
Where are you going next?
The foreign office is encouraging senior staff to resign at 55. I am 55, so I am leaving diplomatic service. I am driving from Kampala to Windhoek with my wife through Kenya, Tanzania, Namibia, and then we are putting the car on the boat in Walvis Bay and fly home via Cape Town.
Did you like your stay here?
It has been a very busy but a very happy time.
What are the positive points about Uganda?
The single nicest thing about Uganda is the Ugandan people. I really found senior civil servants and ministers, consistently very agreeable people. That does not mean they are pussy cats that just roll over every time the tummy is stroked.
There is a depth and strength to the bilateral relationship; which means that you can and also have very frank exchange of views including disagreeing about things and still be friends. So working with Ugandans and socialising with Ugandans has been very nice And there is some fantastic scenery. I must have visited at least 20 countries in Africa and I have never seen more beautiful scenery than the so-called Queen’s Road in Queen Elizabeth National Park. You drive on with crater lakes alongside. Absolutely beautiful! The Rwenzoris too; there is beautiful countryside.
What lasting memory do you have about Uganda?
I think the single memory that is probably going to stay with me is of the state visit by the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh. And I suppose if I had to pick a single memory of that it would be the crowds which lined the road when the Queen arrived on November 20.
I honestly think there were a million people lining the road. It was quite a stunning and terribly good humoured crowd. And I said at the time that the Police had almost nothing to do. The crowd was welcoming, happy, relaxed.
And, again, one of our enduring memories of Uganda is going to be the way in which the Government’s CHOGM Taskforce chaired by James Mugume, the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, worked with the British officials and the Commonwealth Secretariat officials. It was very much a team effort.
What feedback did you get from Her Majesty?
I can assure you that both Her Majesty the Queen and the His Royal Highness Duke of Edinburgh really enjoyed their visit in Uganda, including, in the case of the Duke of Edinburgh, his visit to Queen Elizabeth National park where he met local stakeholders and wildlife experts. Don’t forget that he is a considerable expert on conservation and wildlife management himself.
This was the first Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting ever attended by the Prince of Wales accompanied by his wife the Duchess of Cornwall, and I know they too greatly enjoyed their time here.
Audit reports have pointed out flaws in the expenditures for CHOGM. Do you think it was wise for a poor country like Uganda to host CHOGM and spend a lot of money?
The audit process has certainly been thorough. I think it is a cause for satisfaction that the parliamentary committee has really delved down into the CHOGM budget and is doing a pretty thorough job of holding the Government and senior officials to account. Since the process is not finished I do not feel I should say any more than that.
In so far as the objective of the Government of Uganda was to stage a high profile international event, and to flag up to the international community that Uganda is back in its rightful place, that objective was achieved.
The State visit and CHOGM worked like clockwork. I really cannot identify anything at all that went wrong. It is perhaps for Ugandans to decide whether the gain was worth it. But I think the argument that it was worth it, is quite a strong one.
What are priority areas of UK's development assistance to Uganda?
The UK government provides £70m to Uganda per year under our Development Partnership Agreement. Half of that money goes to the Government of Uganda in the form of budget support, which enables the Government to deliver on its priorities for poverty elimination.
The additional funding is spent on addressing critical humanitarian and reconstruction needs in Northern Uganda, strengthening Government and accountability, and tackling priorities such as HIV and AIDS.
Are you happy about the way this money is being spent?
The Development Partnership Agreement is based on shared priorities around the Millennium Development Goals, good governance and human rights. The UK government works with the Government of Uganda to monitor these, and to further strengthen the Government’s own monitoring and delivery systems.
Are you optimistic about Uganda’s future political and economic progress?
When I came here three years ago, northern Uganda was still in a very unhappy state because of the degradations of the LRA. Thanks to the Juba peace process and to the effective intervention of the UPDF, that situation is transformed. We no longer have children walking into town to find somewhere safe to sleep at night. And the whole of the north is starting to redevelop itself.
Uganda was then not a multiparty state and multiparty elections have been held. There is now a functioning opposition. There has been good progress in the three years I have been here. We hope to see the Peace Recovery and Development Plan (PRDP) for the north implemented and the next general elections for 2011 to be even better on the lines identified by international observers and the Electoral Commission.
What is going to be Britain’s contribution to the northern Uganda Rehabilitation?
The Juba process, which we supported financially, has led to a peace agreement which we hope to see implemented. Not signed yet but it can be implemented. We support that as the way to go including the reconciliation process.
I am very optimistic about northern Uganda because Southern Sudan is basically a rich part of Africa but it is not very good for agriculture. Northern Uganda is very good for agriculture. There is going to be a big market in Southern Sudan for agricultural produce from northern Uganda.
Would you say Uganda’s political transition has progressed well?
It has progressed and I do not consider that progress to be over. We are working with Government and opposition parties in the Deepening Democracy programme to continue that process and it is going forward.
What do you think is the critical democratization issue that the government needs to urgently address?
I do not want to be prescriptive. But clearly, the kind of issues that are occupying the centre stage of Uganda’s political space include freedom of assembly for all politicians, freedom of association, opening up the political space, finding the right balance between freedom of media expression and protection of the rights of individuals.
What is your view on the lifting of the presidential term limits?
I think that is an internal matter. I would recall, though, that in a slightly different context at the Queen’s birthday party, I said ‘even the best dancer must leave the stage.’ I made that comment in respect to myself. It does perhaps have a wider application.
What is your take on the current succession debate in Uganda?
It is healthy to have such a debate but it would be clearly quite wrong for foreigners to become involved.
Do you think President Yoweri Museveni should go for another term in office?
Ultimately it is a matter for Ugandans.
Britain had a component for training the Uganda Police force. What would you say about the quality of the current Police force?
We did the ‘managing demonstrations project’. The training session was actually managed by the Uganda Human Rights Commission. And it was training for the Police force. I think they did an excellent job during the CHOGM State visit. But I think it is the case, as Gen. Kale Kayihura said, that he sees the need for some improvement.
You have been following incidents in which opposition leaders have been beaten by the Police. Why haven’t you condemned it?
I am aware of those reports. We certainly regret any infringement on the rights of Ugandans to assembly, when politicians are discussing things with members of the electorate.
Do you think public rallies should be regulated?
That is a balance to be struck and that was the whole point of the workshop we funded. There is a balance to strike between the rights of the citizens to assemble and demonstrate and the rights of other citizens to have peaceful enjoyment of their rights without being disrupted.
One of the conclusions of the workshop was that the Uganda Human Rights Commission is going to work on a code of conduct which will be agreed between civil society and police and the Government. There is a balance to be struck and I believe the key to finding that balance is to engage in dialogue
Do you think the Ugandan government is committed to fighting corruption?
The Ugandan government has certainly put in place a special court for corruption cases which we strongly support. There are inquiries into some alleged incidences of large scale corruption. To a certain extent, these are sub-judice and I will not say too much about them, but we welcome that.
Are you satisfied with the way corruption cases have been handled
We wouldn’t be unhappy to see things going forward a bit quicker. But the train is moving in the right direction.
What is your comment on the situation in Zimbabwe?
Tragic. The World Health Organisation estimated that 5million Zimbabweans will need food aid by the end of the year. That is a terrible indictment of the Zimbabwean government. And the plain fact is that on March 29, the opposition won, but then had to abandon the presidential campaigns because their supporters were being killed by ZANU-PF thugs.
We support talks about talks in South Africa between ZANU-PF and the opposition. But at the same time, we make no apology at all for promoting sanctions against some of the people who have been responsible for the violence and denial of democracy to the Zimbabwe people.
Would you accept talk that Britain bears the blame for the mess in Zimbabwe? That you have not been helpful in solving the land problem there?
We last ran Zimbabwe in 1965, 40 years ago. It has been independent under a democratic regime for 28 years. So, I am afraid I cannot accept that everything that is going on in Zimbabwe is our fault. They have been independent under a democratic regime for long enough for the government of Zimbabwe to take responsibility.
You are blamed for not implementing the Lancaster House agreement on land reforms in Zimbabwe?
What was agreed at Lancaster House was a very substantial package of aid to Zimbabwe which we funded. And after a good few years, we had serious concerns about the way the land distribution was being mismanaged.
Specifically, we funded the process where the land would be bought on a willing seller willing buyer basis and distributed to poor Zimbabweans. This evolved into people being expropriated and land given to members of the political establishment and we said we would not be funding that.
How do you think the problem can be solved?
Democracy; the formation of a government that reflects the will of the Zimbabwean people. Any solution which is not based on that – cannot be stable.
There is also a raging debate on the land reforms in Uganda. Drawing from your country’s experience how do you think Uganda can solve this problem?
There is an ongoing dialogue between the government of Uganda and the whole of the donor community about land issues. I think that the Government is correct in identifying this as an issue that needs to be addressed. It is mind-bogglingly complicated.
The only thing I can say is that Zimbabwe gives us a very good example of how not to do it. It is important in any process of changing the land tenure system in different parts of Uganda to strike a balance between the rights of the people who are currently holding that land and the need for more Ugandans, more small farmers to be able to get a land title.
What is your comment on the ICC proposed indictments on Sudanese President Bashir?
It is an interesting development. What happened is that the prosecutor asked the court to indict him. We are at a very early stage of that process. I would suggest that perhaps the Media must stress this as well: that it is not the case that an indictment, let alone a warrant, has been issued. It is going to be a long time before we get a decision.
What message does it send to other incumbent leaders?
It clearly sends a zero-tolerance message for serious abuses of human rights. But in saying that, I am not anticipating a decision of the ICC. The whole thing is subjudice. So, I don’t want to say anything more.
When you retire do you intend to return to Uganda as a private visitor?
Certainly. First of all I am coming back for a wedding next year. Two of my friends are getting married here and we’ll be back for that. And I have spent most of my diplomatic career in Africa. I can’t honestly think of a more beautiful country than Uganda. We have lots of friends here.
Where are you going next?
The foreign office is encouraging senior staff to resign at 55. I am 55, so I am leaving diplomatic service. I am driving from Kampala to Windhoek with my wife through Kenya, Tanzania, Namibia, and then we are putting the car on the boat in Walvis Bay and fly home via Cape Town.
Did you like your stay here?
It has been a very busy but a very happy time.
What are the positive points about Uganda?
The single nicest thing about Uganda is the Ugandan people. I really found senior civil servants and ministers, consistently very agreeable people. That does not mean they are pussy cats that just roll over every time the tummy is stroked.
There is a depth and strength to the bilateral relationship; which means that you can and also have very frank exchange of views including disagreeing about things and still be friends. So working with Ugandans and socialising with Ugandans has been very nice And there is some fantastic scenery. I must have visited at least 20 countries in Africa and I have never seen more beautiful scenery than the so-called Queen’s Road in Queen Elizabeth National Park. You drive on with crater lakes alongside. Absolutely beautiful! The Rwenzoris too; there is beautiful countryside.
What lasting memory do you have about Uganda?
I think the single memory that is probably going to stay with me is of the state visit by the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh. And I suppose if I had to pick a single memory of that it would be the crowds which lined the road when the Queen arrived on November 20.
I honestly think there were a million people lining the road. It was quite a stunning and terribly good humoured crowd. And I said at the time that the Police had almost nothing to do. The crowd was welcoming, happy, relaxed.
And, again, one of our enduring memories of Uganda is going to be the way in which the Government’s CHOGM Taskforce chaired by James Mugume, the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, worked with the British officials and the Commonwealth Secretariat officials. It was very much a team effort.
What feedback did you get from Her Majesty?
I can assure you that both Her Majesty the Queen and the His Royal Highness Duke of Edinburgh really enjoyed their visit in Uganda, including, in the case of the Duke of Edinburgh, his visit to Queen Elizabeth National park where he met local stakeholders and wildlife experts. Don’t forget that he is a considerable expert on conservation and wildlife management himself.
This was the first Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting ever attended by the Prince of Wales accompanied by his wife the Duchess of Cornwall, and I know they too greatly enjoyed their time here.
Audit reports have pointed out flaws in the expenditures for CHOGM. Do you think it was wise for a poor country like Uganda to host CHOGM and spend a lot of money?
The audit process has certainly been thorough. I think it is a cause for satisfaction that the parliamentary committee has really delved down into the CHOGM budget and is doing a pretty thorough job of holding the Government and senior officials to account. Since the process is not finished I do not feel I should say any more than that.
In so far as the objective of the Government of Uganda was to stage a high profile international event, and to flag up to the international community that Uganda is back in its rightful place, that objective was achieved.
The State visit and CHOGM worked like clockwork. I really cannot identify anything at all that went wrong. It is perhaps for Ugandans to decide whether the gain was worth it. But I think the argument that it was worth it, is quite a strong one.
What are priority areas of UK's development assistance to Uganda?
The UK government provides £70m to Uganda per year under our Development Partnership Agreement. Half of that money goes to the Government of Uganda in the form of budget support, which enables the Government to deliver on its priorities for poverty elimination.
The additional funding is spent on addressing critical humanitarian and reconstruction needs in Northern Uganda, strengthening Government and accountability, and tackling priorities such as HIV and AIDS.
Are you happy about the way this money is being spent?
The Development Partnership Agreement is based on shared priorities around the Millennium Development Goals, good governance and human rights. The UK government works with the Government of Uganda to monitor these, and to further strengthen the Government’s own monitoring and delivery systems.
Are you optimistic about Uganda’s future political and economic progress?
When I came here three years ago, northern Uganda was still in a very unhappy state because of the degradations of the LRA. Thanks to the Juba peace process and to the effective intervention of the UPDF, that situation is transformed. We no longer have children walking into town to find somewhere safe to sleep at night. And the whole of the north is starting to redevelop itself.
Uganda was then not a multiparty state and multiparty elections have been held. There is now a functioning opposition. There has been good progress in the three years I have been here. We hope to see the Peace Recovery and Development Plan (PRDP) for the north implemented and the next general elections for 2011 to be even better on the lines identified by international observers and the Electoral Commission.
What is going to be Britain’s contribution to the northern Uganda Rehabilitation?
The Juba process, which we supported financially, has led to a peace agreement which we hope to see implemented. Not signed yet but it can be implemented. We support that as the way to go including the reconciliation process.
I am very optimistic about northern Uganda because Southern Sudan is basically a rich part of Africa but it is not very good for agriculture. Northern Uganda is very good for agriculture. There is going to be a big market in Southern Sudan for agricultural produce from northern Uganda.
Would you say Uganda’s political transition has progressed well?
It has progressed and I do not consider that progress to be over. We are working with Government and opposition parties in the Deepening Democracy programme to continue that process and it is going forward.
What do you think is the critical democratization issue that the government needs to urgently address?
I do not want to be prescriptive. But clearly, the kind of issues that are occupying the centre stage of Uganda’s political space include freedom of assembly for all politicians, freedom of association, opening up the political space, finding the right balance between freedom of media expression and protection of the rights of individuals.
What is your view on the lifting of the presidential term limits?
I think that is an internal matter. I would recall, though, that in a slightly different context at the Queen’s birthday party, I said ‘even the best dancer must leave the stage.’ I made that comment in respect to myself. It does perhaps have a wider application.
What is your take on the current succession debate in Uganda?
It is healthy to have such a debate but it would be clearly quite wrong for foreigners to become involved.
Do you think President Yoweri Museveni should go for another term in office?
Ultimately it is a matter for Ugandans.
Britain had a component for training the Uganda Police force. What would you say about the quality of the current Police force?
We did the ‘managing demonstrations project’. The training session was actually managed by the Uganda Human Rights Commission. And it was training for the Police force. I think they did an excellent job during the CHOGM State visit. But I think it is the case, as Gen. Kale Kayihura said, that he sees the need for some improvement.
You have been following incidents in which opposition leaders have been beaten by the Police. Why haven’t you condemned it?
I am aware of those reports. We certainly regret any infringement on the rights of Ugandans to assembly, when politicians are discussing things with members of the electorate.
Do you think public rallies should be regulated?
That is a balance to be struck and that was the whole point of the workshop we funded. There is a balance to strike between the rights of the citizens to assemble and demonstrate and the rights of other citizens to have peaceful enjoyment of their rights without being disrupted.
One of the conclusions of the workshop was that the Uganda Human Rights Commission is going to work on a code of conduct which will be agreed between civil society and police and the Government. There is a balance to be struck and I believe the key to finding that balance is to engage in dialogue
Do you think the Ugandan government is committed to fighting corruption?
The Ugandan government has certainly put in place a special court for corruption cases which we strongly support. There are inquiries into some alleged incidences of large scale corruption. To a certain extent, these are sub-judice and I will not say too much about them, but we welcome that.
Are you satisfied with the way corruption cases have been handled
We wouldn’t be unhappy to see things going forward a bit quicker. But the train is moving in the right direction.
What is your comment on the situation in Zimbabwe?
Tragic. The World Health Organisation estimated that 5million Zimbabweans will need food aid by the end of the year. That is a terrible indictment of the Zimbabwean government. And the plain fact is that on March 29, the opposition won, but then had to abandon the presidential campaigns because their supporters were being killed by ZANU-PF thugs.
We support talks about talks in South Africa between ZANU-PF and the opposition. But at the same time, we make no apology at all for promoting sanctions against some of the people who have been responsible for the violence and denial of democracy to the Zimbabwe people.
Would you accept talk that Britain bears the blame for the mess in Zimbabwe? That you have not been helpful in solving the land problem there?
We last ran Zimbabwe in 1965, 40 years ago. It has been independent under a democratic regime for 28 years. So, I am afraid I cannot accept that everything that is going on in Zimbabwe is our fault. They have been independent under a democratic regime for long enough for the government of Zimbabwe to take responsibility.
You are blamed for not implementing the Lancaster House agreement on land reforms in Zimbabwe?
What was agreed at Lancaster House was a very substantial package of aid to Zimbabwe which we funded. And after a good few years, we had serious concerns about the way the land distribution was being mismanaged.
Specifically, we funded the process where the land would be bought on a willing seller willing buyer basis and distributed to poor Zimbabweans. This evolved into people being expropriated and land given to members of the political establishment and we said we would not be funding that.
How do you think the problem can be solved?
Democracy; the formation of a government that reflects the will of the Zimbabwean people. Any solution which is not based on that – cannot be stable.
There is also a raging debate on the land reforms in Uganda. Drawing from your country’s experience how do you think Uganda can solve this problem?
There is an ongoing dialogue between the government of Uganda and the whole of the donor community about land issues. I think that the Government is correct in identifying this as an issue that needs to be addressed. It is mind-bogglingly complicated.
The only thing I can say is that Zimbabwe gives us a very good example of how not to do it. It is important in any process of changing the land tenure system in different parts of Uganda to strike a balance between the rights of the people who are currently holding that land and the need for more Ugandans, more small farmers to be able to get a land title.
What is your comment on the ICC proposed indictments on Sudanese President Bashir?
It is an interesting development. What happened is that the prosecutor asked the court to indict him. We are at a very early stage of that process. I would suggest that perhaps the Media must stress this as well: that it is not the case that an indictment, let alone a warrant, has been issued. It is going to be a long time before we get a decision.
What message does it send to other incumbent leaders?
It clearly sends a zero-tolerance message for serious abuses of human rights. But in saying that, I am not anticipating a decision of the ICC. The whole thing is subjudice. So, I don’t want to say anything more.
When you retire do you intend to return to Uganda as a private visitor?
Certainly. First of all I am coming back for a wedding next year. Two of my friends are getting married here and we’ll be back for that. And I have spent most of my diplomatic career in Africa. I can’t honestly think of a more beautiful country than Uganda. We have lots of friends here.