You cannot involve my kingdom into politics
Apr 23, 2010
RWENZURURU Kingdom has advised its officials to resign before they go into politics and has taken a stand against splitting Kasese district. <b>Asuman Bisiika</b> had a chat with the King, <b>Charles Wesley Mumbere</b>.
RWENZURURU Kingdom has advised its officials to resign before they go into politics and has taken a stand against splitting Kasese district. Asuman Bisiika had a chat with the King, Charles Wesley Mumbere.
The Rwenzururu Kingdom was officially recognised by the government in October 2009. What are the benefits?
The Central Government’s recognition of Obusinga Bwa Rwenzururu (Rwenzururu Kingdom) was itself a benefit for the people. The Government’s delay or reluctance to recognise the kingdom had led to divisive debates that almost degenerated into a confrontation.
The energy and enthusiasm the people exercised in the fight for recognition of the kingdom could not be ignored. Some political forces (armed rebellion and civil) had made Kasese a battle ground. These forces always took advantage of the absence of Rwenzururu Kingdom or the Government’s reluctance to recognise the kingdom. Since October 2009, kingdom officials have been involved in designing and developing strategic plans for the transformation of our people.
In this endeavour, the kingdom administration will make a deliberate effort to support and complement other groups in the private or public sectors with similar vision locally or nationally.
But you talk like a politician. What do you as an individual get from the Government?
There are benefits like the provision of security, transport facilities, protocol and other general benefits like other recognised kings.
Most of the people who led the struggle for the Government to recognise the kingdom were from the opposition.
We recognise the constitutional restrictions on active participation in politics. To that effect, the office of the Omusinga (king) has directed the Prime Minister to advise people with political ambitions in the kingdom administration to seek leave of absence before participating in active politics. With that policy, we think no one is going to drag the kingdom into politics.
But your young brother, Christopher Kibanzanga, is an active politician.
My brother holds no position in the administrative structures of the kingdom. I don’t know what the constitution says about princes and princesses. We will find out whether the Ugandan laws restrict members of royal families from participating in active politics.
The Cultural Leaders’ Forum has been pushing for the recognition of Ankole Kingdom. What is the Rwenzururu’s position on the issue?
Since the recognition of the Rwenzururu Kingdom, we have participated in two sittings of the Cultural Leaders Forum. Crown Prince John Barigye of Ankole Kingdom also attended.
We have not discussed the push for the recognition of Ankole Kingdom. I personally treat it as an internal affair of the people of Ankole. They should choose whether they want recognition or not. However, as one of the oldest kingdoms in Uganda, we would be happy if the Ankole Kingdom was recognised.
Like many Ugandans, some Banyankole supported our struggle. Kasese is home to many Banyankole business people. I have been told that some of them made contributions to our effort.
The Basongora cattle keepers were resettled by the central government on lands already occupied by cultivators (Bakonzo). The cultivators are said to be bitter over this. Anything your kingdom can do?
This happened when I was still in the US. In 2008, the situation deteriorated to ethnic clashes that left several people dead. I saw a victim of the clashes with very deep cuts all over the body. But at the time, our priority was the struggle for recognition. There was a fear that we would be portrayed as divisive if we got involved in the ethnic clashes.
But you seem to be reluctant to state that the victims were Bakonzo?
What difference would it make now if the victim of the violence was an Acholi or a Muganda? All of them are my people. I can only say the violent incidents were unfortunate and viewing the violence through an ethnic lens would not help us. The situation has something to do with social and economic factors like land and production. However, there were government officials who got involved. But the government transferred some principal actors. Now, there is peace.
But the cultivators lost their lands…
No no no. It was not about losing… or getting it. The Government made a commitment to resettle them.
what if the cultivators had been resettled on the Government land hitherto occupied by cattle keepers?
I don’t want to call all cultivators Bakonzo. We have many communities in the conflict areas who are not Bakonzo. I am aware that there are Bakiga, Banyankole, Batooro and many others.
The Government resettled the Basongora. However, it seems there were legitimate claims on the land the Government released. We should be looking at people’s claims and compensation, not divisive talk of Bakonzo or Basongora.
How was the late Maj. Gen. James Kazini related to the Rwenzururu Kingdom?
I didn’t know Gen. Kazini personally. But I was told he was born in the Rwenzori region and supported the activities of Rwenzururu.
And I learnt that he was very popular in the region. Otherwise, I never got the opportunity to meet him.
Some kingdoms have claims of property in the Government hands. Does the Rwenzururu have any claims? For instance, who has the land title of this place (royal palace on Kyebambe Road in Kasese)?
In 1982, the government gave us three properties in Kasese; this palace and two commercial buildings on Margherita Road. The Government gave these properties to me in my private capacity. It was a resettlement package.
The two commercial properties were reclaimed by their Indian owners and the kingdom administration has raised the issue with President Yoweri Museveni.
But I must say that the kingdom has acquired land on which to build a palace and an administration block.
Your father, King Isaya Mukirania, the first Rwenzururu king, was buried on land that is now under Uganda Wildlife Authority. Do you always seek ‘safe passage’ from UWA when you want to visit your father’s burial grounds?
The Uganda Wildlife Authority and the Rwenzururu Kingdom have a cordial relationship. They recognise the importance we attach to the burial place of our king and we respect their activities. However, the kingdom would like to manage the burial site of King Isaya Mukirania. But this is not the only site which we would like to be given.
There is Kahindangoma in Kisiinga sub-county. There is the burial site of Hon. Yohana Mwambalha, who was one of my regents. We also want to take over the management and maintenance of the tomb of Nyamutswa, Kapoli and Tibamwenda, the three Bakonzo heroes who earned martyrdom when they were killed for resisting sub-colonialism. The site of their tomb is managed by local administration. There are also other properties in Bundibugyo, like my father’s estates in Kasulenge.
Bundibugyo is part of Rwenzururu Kingdom. But the people in the new district of Ntoroko (created out of Bundibugyo) are likely to be more comfortable associating with Toro Kingdom than Rwenzururu. What do you say?
We cannot force or buy allegiance from people. But we understand the challenges of the kingdom administration in Bundibugyo. What I know is that at the beginning of the struggle in 1961, the Bamba and the Bakonzo were united in the fight against what they both saw as injustices committed against them.
Some of them see the Rwenzururu Kingdom as the end result of that struggle and others think otherwise. The Bakonzo and Bamba have their ancestry in Bundibugyo and we expect both sides to respect that fact. Even then, most of the people in Bundibugyo support Rwenzururu Kingdom. But Ntoroko cannot join another kingdom. It is impossible. No leader, national or local, would even think about it.
Kasese is now one of the biggest districts in Uganda. Would the kingdom administration support the idea of splitting?
We are not political but we can give advice. If such an idea came up for discussion, we would strongly advise against it. We would also discourage the central government from adopting that position.
Does the Kingdom of Toro still have properties in Kasese and Bundibugyo?
There are properties that belong to the King of Toro in his private capacity and properties that belong to the Kingdom of Toro. Our thinking is that Rwenzururu should be treated as the successor institution of the Toro Kingdom in the districts of Kasese and Bundibugyo. This means the kingdom administration would definitely claim everything that belonged to Kingdom of Toro.
Regarding properties of the King of Toro in Kasese and Bundibugyo, we suggest that he gets compensation from the central government as an absentee landlord so his title holding can be transferred to Obusinga or the district administration.
Dr. Kizza Besigye calls himself the president of Kasese, yet you refused to meet him when he was in the district recently. Does that mean you would also not meet President Museveni?
You should have asked why we didn’t meet Besigye; not whether we would not meet President Museveni. We owe President Museveni the courtesy of protocol because he is the Head of State. So, we would meet him.
We welcome all political groups. The only problem with Besigye’s visit was the timing. The time he requested to visit us, we were unable to make it. And the time we suggested for his visit, he was unable. We received Norbert Mao, Beti Kamya. We treat all political parties equally.
You live in your young brother’s constituency. Anyone would understand the temptation for you to vote for your brother (who belongs to FDC).
There are many parties. Why are your restricting me to my brother’s party? Why can’t I be tempted to vote for another party?
But he is your brother. So, will you be tempted to vote for an NRM candidate?
Why are you limiting Uganda’s politics to FDC and NRM? I am only interested in a strong relationship between the Rwenzururu Kingdom and the central government. But let me put it this way: I will NOT vote.
There is a politically-laden statement: Erisubya Omwa’kibo (one good turn deserves another). This is like compelling people to vote NRM as a gesture of gratitude.
(Laughter…) I have also heard of that phrase. But I and the kingdom administration have nothing to do with it. We didn’t direct the people to vote FDC in 2006. However, if the people decided to vote for the NRM to express their gratitude, they would be doing it voluntarily.
So, from a hospital menial to royalty; sounds like the Cinderella legend. How did you live?
For about 30 years, I lived a private life in the US until I decided to return home and lead from the front.
After about 30 years in the US, do you still remember the harsh bush life during the Rwenzururu rebellion?
We have been to almost all parts of the Rwenzori Mountains. I realise it was a difficult life; we passed through extremes of endurance.
But we did not seem to have an alternative because our father had chosen the path of rebellion and we had to be with him.
The Bakonzo have a saying: He who picks mushrooms from a rotting log should remember he that cut the log. It is UPC that mainstreamed the Rwenzururu Kingdom into the national narrative. And indeed, you had many friends in UPC. Did you invite some of them when your kingdom was officially recognised?
I must confess I have not been in touch with many of them. Some of them must have died and others very old now. Some of them were invited to attend the coronation anniversary but I don’t know whether they attended.
The Rwenzururu Kingdom was officially recognised by the government in October 2009. What are the benefits?
The Central Government’s recognition of Obusinga Bwa Rwenzururu (Rwenzururu Kingdom) was itself a benefit for the people. The Government’s delay or reluctance to recognise the kingdom had led to divisive debates that almost degenerated into a confrontation.
The energy and enthusiasm the people exercised in the fight for recognition of the kingdom could not be ignored. Some political forces (armed rebellion and civil) had made Kasese a battle ground. These forces always took advantage of the absence of Rwenzururu Kingdom or the Government’s reluctance to recognise the kingdom. Since October 2009, kingdom officials have been involved in designing and developing strategic plans for the transformation of our people.
In this endeavour, the kingdom administration will make a deliberate effort to support and complement other groups in the private or public sectors with similar vision locally or nationally.
But you talk like a politician. What do you as an individual get from the Government?
There are benefits like the provision of security, transport facilities, protocol and other general benefits like other recognised kings.
Most of the people who led the struggle for the Government to recognise the kingdom were from the opposition.
We recognise the constitutional restrictions on active participation in politics. To that effect, the office of the Omusinga (king) has directed the Prime Minister to advise people with political ambitions in the kingdom administration to seek leave of absence before participating in active politics. With that policy, we think no one is going to drag the kingdom into politics.
But your young brother, Christopher Kibanzanga, is an active politician.
My brother holds no position in the administrative structures of the kingdom. I don’t know what the constitution says about princes and princesses. We will find out whether the Ugandan laws restrict members of royal families from participating in active politics.
The Cultural Leaders’ Forum has been pushing for the recognition of Ankole Kingdom. What is the Rwenzururu’s position on the issue?
Since the recognition of the Rwenzururu Kingdom, we have participated in two sittings of the Cultural Leaders Forum. Crown Prince John Barigye of Ankole Kingdom also attended.
We have not discussed the push for the recognition of Ankole Kingdom. I personally treat it as an internal affair of the people of Ankole. They should choose whether they want recognition or not. However, as one of the oldest kingdoms in Uganda, we would be happy if the Ankole Kingdom was recognised.
Like many Ugandans, some Banyankole supported our struggle. Kasese is home to many Banyankole business people. I have been told that some of them made contributions to our effort.
The Basongora cattle keepers were resettled by the central government on lands already occupied by cultivators (Bakonzo). The cultivators are said to be bitter over this. Anything your kingdom can do?
This happened when I was still in the US. In 2008, the situation deteriorated to ethnic clashes that left several people dead. I saw a victim of the clashes with very deep cuts all over the body. But at the time, our priority was the struggle for recognition. There was a fear that we would be portrayed as divisive if we got involved in the ethnic clashes.
But you seem to be reluctant to state that the victims were Bakonzo?
What difference would it make now if the victim of the violence was an Acholi or a Muganda? All of them are my people. I can only say the violent incidents were unfortunate and viewing the violence through an ethnic lens would not help us. The situation has something to do with social and economic factors like land and production. However, there were government officials who got involved. But the government transferred some principal actors. Now, there is peace.
But the cultivators lost their lands…
No no no. It was not about losing… or getting it. The Government made a commitment to resettle them.
what if the cultivators had been resettled on the Government land hitherto occupied by cattle keepers?
I don’t want to call all cultivators Bakonzo. We have many communities in the conflict areas who are not Bakonzo. I am aware that there are Bakiga, Banyankole, Batooro and many others.
The Government resettled the Basongora. However, it seems there were legitimate claims on the land the Government released. We should be looking at people’s claims and compensation, not divisive talk of Bakonzo or Basongora.
How was the late Maj. Gen. James Kazini related to the Rwenzururu Kingdom?
I didn’t know Gen. Kazini personally. But I was told he was born in the Rwenzori region and supported the activities of Rwenzururu.
And I learnt that he was very popular in the region. Otherwise, I never got the opportunity to meet him.
Some kingdoms have claims of property in the Government hands. Does the Rwenzururu have any claims? For instance, who has the land title of this place (royal palace on Kyebambe Road in Kasese)?
In 1982, the government gave us three properties in Kasese; this palace and two commercial buildings on Margherita Road. The Government gave these properties to me in my private capacity. It was a resettlement package.
The two commercial properties were reclaimed by their Indian owners and the kingdom administration has raised the issue with President Yoweri Museveni.
But I must say that the kingdom has acquired land on which to build a palace and an administration block.
Your father, King Isaya Mukirania, the first Rwenzururu king, was buried on land that is now under Uganda Wildlife Authority. Do you always seek ‘safe passage’ from UWA when you want to visit your father’s burial grounds?
The Uganda Wildlife Authority and the Rwenzururu Kingdom have a cordial relationship. They recognise the importance we attach to the burial place of our king and we respect their activities. However, the kingdom would like to manage the burial site of King Isaya Mukirania. But this is not the only site which we would like to be given.
There is Kahindangoma in Kisiinga sub-county. There is the burial site of Hon. Yohana Mwambalha, who was one of my regents. We also want to take over the management and maintenance of the tomb of Nyamutswa, Kapoli and Tibamwenda, the three Bakonzo heroes who earned martyrdom when they were killed for resisting sub-colonialism. The site of their tomb is managed by local administration. There are also other properties in Bundibugyo, like my father’s estates in Kasulenge.
Bundibugyo is part of Rwenzururu Kingdom. But the people in the new district of Ntoroko (created out of Bundibugyo) are likely to be more comfortable associating with Toro Kingdom than Rwenzururu. What do you say?
We cannot force or buy allegiance from people. But we understand the challenges of the kingdom administration in Bundibugyo. What I know is that at the beginning of the struggle in 1961, the Bamba and the Bakonzo were united in the fight against what they both saw as injustices committed against them.
Some of them see the Rwenzururu Kingdom as the end result of that struggle and others think otherwise. The Bakonzo and Bamba have their ancestry in Bundibugyo and we expect both sides to respect that fact. Even then, most of the people in Bundibugyo support Rwenzururu Kingdom. But Ntoroko cannot join another kingdom. It is impossible. No leader, national or local, would even think about it.
Kasese is now one of the biggest districts in Uganda. Would the kingdom administration support the idea of splitting?
We are not political but we can give advice. If such an idea came up for discussion, we would strongly advise against it. We would also discourage the central government from adopting that position.
Does the Kingdom of Toro still have properties in Kasese and Bundibugyo?
There are properties that belong to the King of Toro in his private capacity and properties that belong to the Kingdom of Toro. Our thinking is that Rwenzururu should be treated as the successor institution of the Toro Kingdom in the districts of Kasese and Bundibugyo. This means the kingdom administration would definitely claim everything that belonged to Kingdom of Toro.
Regarding properties of the King of Toro in Kasese and Bundibugyo, we suggest that he gets compensation from the central government as an absentee landlord so his title holding can be transferred to Obusinga or the district administration.
Dr. Kizza Besigye calls himself the president of Kasese, yet you refused to meet him when he was in the district recently. Does that mean you would also not meet President Museveni?
You should have asked why we didn’t meet Besigye; not whether we would not meet President Museveni. We owe President Museveni the courtesy of protocol because he is the Head of State. So, we would meet him.
We welcome all political groups. The only problem with Besigye’s visit was the timing. The time he requested to visit us, we were unable to make it. And the time we suggested for his visit, he was unable. We received Norbert Mao, Beti Kamya. We treat all political parties equally.
You live in your young brother’s constituency. Anyone would understand the temptation for you to vote for your brother (who belongs to FDC).
There are many parties. Why are your restricting me to my brother’s party? Why can’t I be tempted to vote for another party?
But he is your brother. So, will you be tempted to vote for an NRM candidate?
Why are you limiting Uganda’s politics to FDC and NRM? I am only interested in a strong relationship between the Rwenzururu Kingdom and the central government. But let me put it this way: I will NOT vote.
There is a politically-laden statement: Erisubya Omwa’kibo (one good turn deserves another). This is like compelling people to vote NRM as a gesture of gratitude.
(Laughter…) I have also heard of that phrase. But I and the kingdom administration have nothing to do with it. We didn’t direct the people to vote FDC in 2006. However, if the people decided to vote for the NRM to express their gratitude, they would be doing it voluntarily.
So, from a hospital menial to royalty; sounds like the Cinderella legend. How did you live?
For about 30 years, I lived a private life in the US until I decided to return home and lead from the front.
After about 30 years in the US, do you still remember the harsh bush life during the Rwenzururu rebellion?
We have been to almost all parts of the Rwenzori Mountains. I realise it was a difficult life; we passed through extremes of endurance.
But we did not seem to have an alternative because our father had chosen the path of rebellion and we had to be with him.
The Bakonzo have a saying: He who picks mushrooms from a rotting log should remember he that cut the log. It is UPC that mainstreamed the Rwenzururu Kingdom into the national narrative. And indeed, you had many friends in UPC. Did you invite some of them when your kingdom was officially recognised?
I must confess I have not been in touch with many of them. Some of them must have died and others very old now. Some of them were invited to attend the coronation anniversary but I don’t know whether they attended.