Wamba speaks out on Congo

Professor Wamba Dia Wamba, Chairperson of the Rally for Congolese Democracy (RCD), who has been active in the Congolese struggle for decades, has witnessed the rise and fall of Mobutu and Laurent Kabila, gave an exclusive interview to Cedric Muhammad while on a visit to the United States. Excerpts below Question: What can you tell us, right now, of the condition of the Congolese people in terms of their health, spirit and other wise? Answer: Well, the conditions in the most parts are bad. As you know, in less than three years, about 2 million have died. There are not any good health services, in the war zone, particularly. Soldiers have been using violence on women, so you have quite a few women who are victims of HIV. Some of the diseases that have disappeared elsewhere are coming back. It is because of the lack of facilities. And so, I would say that the conditions of life are very bad and the conditions of reproduction, in terms of food, also are not good. In fact, a study has said that as much as one sixth of the population has problems finding food. At one time did you support Laurent Kabila against Mobutu? What we supported was that Mobutu had to go. At that time there was not much of a choice as to who should replace him. We thought that Laurent Kabila with time, given the preparation of the democratisation by the National Conference,would be attentive to that and that he was going to create the conditions to make sure that the population, this time would be having a say. He did not. He ended up becoming another version of Mobutu. What was the turning point in your relationship with Laurent Kabila? The turning point was when he proclaimed himself to be President before even getting to Kinshasa, without contacting even his own executive committee in the organisation so that by the time he got to power, he just institutionalised the solitary exercise of power. It went on with no real vision, and no real policy. That is what precipitated the war because he couldn't deal effectively in relationships with Congo's neighbours. At what point did you establish the Rally For Congolese Democracy? Within the army there was already had a military rebellion and even a coup attempt. Some of us felt that it was important to provide some political leadership. That is how the Rally For Congolese Democracy was created. And initially you were in unity with Jean-Pierre Bemba? At what point did the two of you come together? Bemba is not a member of the Congolese Rally for Democracy. Bemba came later on and created his own organisation called Congolese Liberation Movement. Did you all ever work together with any harmony between your two organisations? We have had minor contacts as individuals and a little bit in the movement in the so-called of "common front" of rebellion. But it is only recently that when the Ugandan allies pushed for the creation of a united front - a merger. But we did not accept it (the idea of a merger) because it was geared to essentially resuming the war and we were saying the war should be ended and that we should implement the Lusaka accord. When did you form a relationship with Uganda? Rwanda, like the Ugandans, find themselves in the Congo on the basis of the defence and security of their borders. In fact, for Uganda there was even an agreement concerning borders at the beginning of Kabila's regime. So they had troops inside, so we found them on the terrain. And then we had to work with them because we had some convergence of views particularly on the question of what kind of regime should exist after the war. They were for a broad-based transitional regime, which we also supported. Did you support the Lusaka Accord and if so, why? Yes, we supported the Lusaka agreement because it is in line with our notion that the resort to arms was due to the lack of channels of communication. But once negotiations started, and we went through many stages to reach the Lusaka agreement, we supported those. And we participated actively. It contained the external element in terms of interests of the neighbouring countries and those who have troops inside the Congo. And it has an internal dynamic that there has to be an inter- Congolese dialogue. That is the only way to come to resolving the crisis and come out with a new political dispensation. So, we support it. After the assassination of Laurent Kabila, what was your reaction? We reacted by condemning it first. Because we do not believe that violence can solve political problems per se. So, we said that we did not support those kinds of methods. But also we said that we understood because of the way that the solitary exercise of power was being conducted. And we hoped also that people would understand, in greeting the leaders across the continent, that the more that we do not really move forward to peace, the more that kind of reaction in some people may develop and we really should avoid this and develop the peace momentum. What is your opinion of Joseph Kabila? What he has said in the beginning as far as wanting to open up for peace is very good. But we have to know who he is and where he is coming from. The Congolese people are still trying to figure him out. But they will want somebody who is accountable to the responsive needs, the sort of aspirations for security and development. If this is what he represents, we will support him. Have you reached out in any way to Joseph Kabila? We met formally at the February 15th summit in Lusaka. Did you see that as a positive move toward the resolution of some of the problems or as symbolic in nature? Well, all of us reconfirming the support of Lusaka and our support of moving toward peace. Have you had any similar meetings with Jean-Pierre Bemba? Have you all spoken in terms of moving towards Lusaka or having a dialogue between the two sides that you represent? After the death of Kabila - no. Are you satisfied with the pullback of troops by the Zimbabweans, the Angolans, the Namibians, the Ugandans and the Rwandans thus far, since the assassination? Well it is a good sign of the fact that they are respecting the plan for disengagement. Of course we note that not all are doing so but for the most part the foreign troops seem to have complied in terms of following the 15kilometres symbolic withdrawal as an indication of the political willingness to actually follow the plan of disengagement. So, yes, in that sense, one is satisfied. But on the Congolese part we are having some problems. Some have reinterpreted that to say that Congolese do not need to withdraw and in the case of one, instead of withdrawing what is happening is that he is deploying and occupying some more territory. Are you in agreement with Mr. Bemba's position that if any of his rebel troops are to be pulledback they are to be immediately replaced by UN troops. Now, that is just confusing the issue, in our opinion. Because it is understood there will be UN observers deployed. There is a calendar that was agreed on to withdraw with compliance with the disengagement plan. So one can say that one has to be the exception to the rule. So in that sense we don't think after having agreed and signed that one has to again bring a condition. Do you find yourself with major points of agreement with Congolese political opposition leader Etienne Tshisekedi, on various points? We were both in the National Conference so, some of the ideas may have a common basis. He is a democrat and we have always been democrats so in that sense, yes, there may be some common concerns and common views. What exactly would be the steps that would be optimal, in your view, for this transition process to take us from the troop pullbacks possibly to elections? First, we have to agree on the stages of the setting of the dialogue, itself. We think that following consistently what was in the Lusaka Agreement, there would be a meeting on principles so that people agree on the basics like no partition of the Congo; no more use of violence as a way of solving political problems. The formation of the national army - how to draw in the various militias and develop a national army. And the question of the establishment of the state authority throughout the country. And, the programme for preparation for elections and writing the constitution for the elections that are going to come for the third republic. So those are the stages that we have to follow but there are certain issues of crucial importance that should feed in the programme of the transitional government, like the pacification programme. We must have an effort made to pacify the whole country and also the rehabilitation, because there are no road infrastructure and the people have to interact as a condition also for the preparation for elections. We have to know how many we are so that the registers for voters can be prepared. We are hoping that the leaders of the elections authority will not be candidates for the elections, so that there is some kind of objectivity in dealing with the administration of elections. Is there any possibility that we may see you run for office if there was an inter-Congolese dialogue and the people had the opportunity to speak and elections were set up. Do you have any desire to seek elected office in the new Congo? Well, part of that will depend on the sort of reaction that the Congolese people will have to our views. We are interested really in the transition per se. Not necessarily beyond that, but of course, afterward if we are asked maybe we will consider it. I think that we would really like to make clear that the Congo needs peace at this point. Without peace nothing can be done. We just need to create conditions where the Congolese can just sit down and discuss and come out with some consensus on what kind of institutions to have, who should be running the transition and who should be elected as the rulers of the country. We need that peace very badly. Ends