I Was Suspended For Saying Choppers Were Bad –Lutaaya

May 18, 2001

The judicial commission of inquiry into the purchase of combat helicopters for the army has summoned Lt. Col Dick Lutaaya, the Airforce Chief Engineer. Justice Julia Ssebutinde heads the hearing assisted by Mr. Geoffrey Kiryabwire.

The judicial commission of inquiry into the purchase of combat helicopters for the army has summoned Lt. Col Dick Lutaaya, the Airforce Chief Engineer. Justice Julia Ssebutinde heads the hearing assisted by Mr. Geoffrey Kiryabwire. Maureen Owor is the lead counsel and Robinah Gureme Rwakoojo is secretary. Alfred Wasike, Anne Mugisa and Milton Olupot covered the proceedings. Lutaaya, 49, said he was trained in Russian and holds a Masters degree in Engineering. He said he joined the army in 1971 as a Lieutenant. He also trained in Italy as a paratrooper in 1975. Owor: How long have you served as head of the helicopter squadron? Lutaaya: From 1973 to 1974, I was then appointed as base engineer responsible for all squadron maintenance, safety, airworthiness and others. Owor: When was this? Lutaaya: from 1974 to 1976. Owor: What other appointments did you have? Lutaaya: in 1976, I was appointed Chief Engineer of the Airforce. I was controlling all the bases. We had an airbase at Entebbe, we had an airbase at Nakasongola and another at Gulu. Gulu and Nakasongola were fighter squadrons and Entebbe had some fighter planes and transport planes. Owor: How long did you serve as Chief Engineer? Lutaaya: All of Idd Amin's time (up to) April 1979. Owor: What happened? Lutaaya: I was then taken as a prisoner of war (POW) and taken to Luzira Maximum Security prison. Owor: When were you released from Luzira? Lutaaya: I was there for nine months, then I escaped. I had to leave the country and went to Nairobi into exile. Owor: How long were you in exile? Lutaaya: I was in exile for about six months. Then I met a group, a guerrilla group, who were organising to come and attack Obote. So I joined that group. Still in 1980, we decided to come back to Uganda and fight Obote. We passed through Kisumu over the lake (Victoria) up to Kiyindi. Owor: How long were you with the group? Lutaaya: When we were trying to organise to fight Obote, I was re-arrested and taken to Luzira. Four days later, I escaped again. I rejoined my guerrilla group. We fought and toppled Obote....so in 1987 at State House, His Excellency the President appointed me to work as an engineer and told me to assist in re-building the airforce. Owor: What was your rank then? Lutaaya: Captain...So I was with the airforce as chief Engineer until 1999 March when I was suspended. Owor: Do you know why you were suspended? Lutaaya: Yes I know why. It is because I reported that the helicopters were not overhauled. I gave a technical advice which the permanent Secretary did not like. Ssebutinde: Suspended pending what? Lutaaya: They didn't say. They said I was no longer Chief engineer . That was after the PS Mbonye said I was bringing problems as far as the MI-24 helicopters were concerned. Owor: How long were you suspended? Lutaaya: The suspension lasted a year until October 2000. Then I received a letter from the general Headquarters saying that I was cleared from the MI-24 helicopter problems and re-instated as Chief Engineer. I'm still the Chief Engineer. Owor: What are your duties as the Chief Engineer? Lutaaya: To ensure maintenance of the aircraft, safety, airworthiness. I also advise my director on maintenance, any needed purchases, serviceability, buying new spares. My director then contacts headquarters. Owor: Explain a little more on the involvement of your department in the purchases of new crafts. Lutaaya: If there is a proposal for purchase... Owor: From whom? Lutaaya: Above. Ssebutinde: And where is that? Lutaaya: The ministry. I carry out a survey of the craft performance, capability, maneuverability, endurance, the type of arms it is loaded with and its technical condition, then I advise the director. Owor: Does your office have a mandate to look at the price? Lutaaya: Sometimes yes, sometimes not. Usually, the headquarters is interested in our technical input. Owor: Do proposals also come from the airforce? Lutaaya: Yes. I advise my director. We meet and say what we need. The problem is financial. They say there is no money. Owor: who says there is no money? Lutaaya: When we put in our request, it goes to the budget, then the treasury and the Ministry of Defence slashes it to a very low amount. Then we cannot do what we want. It is between the ministry and the Treasury....Our recommendations go to our director who sends them to the headquarters. Owor: Which office at the headquarters? Lutaaya: The Chief of Staff and the Army Commander's office. Owor: So when the decision is taken, how is your office informed? Lutaaya: The director of the airforce is informed and he in turn informs me. Owor: Is your office involved in any inspection of aircraft before they are bought? Lutaaya: Yes. Owor: And at what point are you involved in inspection? Lutaaya: That is when the ministry has decided to purchase, they inform the director. Sometime the army headquarters and the ministry (Defence) select an inspection team. Sometimes, they inform the director to select the team. Owor: It appears that the director does not select all the time. Lutaaya: Yes. Owor: Do you know why? Lutaaya: I don't know the reason. But the right way is that the director should choose because he knows his personnel. The director should also tell me as the Chief Engineer to select the team. Owor: And in the event the Chief Engineer is given to inspect, are you given instructions on what to look for? Lutaaya: I should give the instructions. Owor: Do you work out guidelines? Lutaaya: Once they say we need a new aircraft, then it is me to know what to do. If it is second-hand, they have to tell me, then the rest I know what to do. Owor: In the second-hand purchase, who would give guidelines for an inspection? Lutaaya: If I'm involved I give guidelines. If I'm not, then I don't give an input. Owor: Wouldn't it be your duty? Lutaaya: Yes it is, but if one goes to inspect when you are not around, you wouldn't know. Like these helicopters, I was not around. Owor: You don't have deputies? Lutaaya: I have technical... Owor: We have seen here in some testimony that your office is sidelined. Do you know why? Lutaaya: I don't know why. Ssebutinde: Is it true, though? Lutaaya: Yes, it is true. Owor: I take you to the case in point, the purchase of the helicopters, when was your office first involved? Lutaaya: I came to know about them when the director of the Airforce had already given recommendations. Owor: When was that? Lutaaya: That was in 1996. I don't recall the month. Owor: Did you see the recommendation? Lutaaya: I don't recall seeing it. Owor: How then did the information get to you? Lutaaya: The director told me when he came back from Gulu. He said we were asked to give a report on the MI24. I said I know they are good machines. Owor: Did Col. Masaba involve your office in anyway? Lutaaya: that thing died there. Then after sometime, it came back again. Owor: In what way? Lutaaya: I remember seeing some sort of proposal and quotation. They said the Airforce should give advice and I replied. Col. Masaba wasn't there. I queried the helicopters. Owor: What were you requested to do with the document? Lutaaya: To give advice on the price. There was US$1.3m, then US$300,000 for decommissioning and commissioning, then freight charges, I don't remember the amount. Owor: You said the cost of freight was too high, what was your comparison? Lutaaya: We have sent helicopters abroad for overhaul...we usually pay less than US$100,000 for freight. The figure they had was more than US$300,000. Owor: then commissioning and decommissioning? Lutaaya: We normally don't pay anything because we already paid and it is the duty of the seller to bring and handover. Owor: Do you remember how much it was? Lutaaya: US$300,000 for the whole job. Owor: And the cost of the helicopters each? Lutaaya: US$1.5m each Owor: Did you know their cost? Lutaaya: Yes. Because I usually moved around about in the former Soviet Union on such missions. Owor: How was the cost then? Lutaaya: Such machines were costing US$350,000 to US$450,000 for unoverhauled ones. But when overhauled, you pay US$1.1m. Owor: Did the document talk of overhauled or unoverhauled helicopters. Lutaaya: Overhauled. That was a reasonable price. Kiryabwire: The freight was US$260,000 for MI-24 from Orscha to Entebbe, charter price, is it fair? Lutaaya: It might be reasonable because they brought bigger cargo aircraft. If it is antonov 124, yes it is reasonable. Owor: Did you get a feed-back? Lutaaya: No. Owor: When were you next involved? Lutaaya: There was a meeting (of July 20,1997) at the Ministry of Defence. It was about overhaul.... Owor: Who were in the meeting? Lutaaya: There was a mzungu. He was either Smith or Waterman, I confuse the two. Owor: What are the hours you were asking about? Lutaaya: They were saying that they were overhauling them to 1,000 hours...I told them this is impossible for the airframe because you can overhaul the MI-24 frame to 1,000 hours, calender time eight years...This is after overhaul and engines, 575 hours or six years calender time. Ssebutinde: This is their proposal? Lutaaya: This is my proposal. They had said 1,000 hours on airframe and the engine. Technically, it is impossible. For them they were saying they would give us 1,000 subject to checking every 100 hours or one year. I said no, that was not overhaul but just extension. They said that is the way they are. I said no it is impossible, then they agreed to overhaul. Then they said that they will send their technician to check every 100 hours. I said there was no need to do that if the aircraft are overhauled. Then they said 'but we are sending the technicians free'. Then I said okay we need the technicians for guarantees... Then they said they can overhaul in a very short time. They said they did it before in the war with Afghanistan. But I said Belarus was not at war with Afghanistan, it was Russia at war with Afghanistan. Owor: This is what you recall took place in the meeting, but it wasn't minuted. They were not involved in .... Lutaaya: they talked of overhauling engines here. I said it was impossible. Owor: They said they would bring the equipment to do the overhaul. Lutaaya: They were talking of impossibles. First, I don't know if the manufacturers could allow them to bring the overhauling equipment. We only had two aircraft, you need 1,000 aircraft to do it. You need to bring the entire plant here to overhaul. So the alternative is to overhaul the aircraft there. It involves a lot including disassembling the plane, cleaning its components, repairing and testing each component, then assembling the craft and test-flying it. Owor: Were you in the Kasese meeting? Lutaaya: No...I later got involved when they were going for the last pre-shipment inspection. Owor: You went on the pre-shipment inspection? Lutaaya: No, I have never gone on any inspection for those helicopters...we were called for a meeting by Minister of State for Defence Amama mbabazi. There was the secretary for Defence, Dr. Ben Mbonye, Army Commander Mugisha Muntu and Chief of Logistics and engineering, Col. Dr. Kiiza Besigye, Col. Masaba and myself. The minister informed the meeting that the helicopters are ready, that they have been overhauled and that we have to select the team for pre-shipment inspection. He said the president had directed that Lt. Col. Kassa be on the team. Mbonye chose Besigye and the Army Commander suggested that the technician who went the last time goes again. Owor: Why were you not put on the team? Lutaaya: Mbonye said there was money for only three people. My lord, I will take you back a bit to the first inspection. When that group came back, they said the helicopters had only been moved from one place to another and not overhauled and this was only three weeks from then. I said it was impossible to overhaul within such a short time. Then I suggested if that was the case, then I should go with masaba and I see them. Mbonye said there was no money. I suggested that we change the group and take technical people, they refused. Then my Director, Mr Masaba, told me, "You have tried your best, you can keep quiet and let them go..." I think there was money because I said reduce the number of people and let the technical ones go, they refused. Owor: Have you ever inspected aircraft before? Lutaaya: Yes, so many times. Both new and old crafts for overhaul and spares. Lutaya then tells the commission an elaborate procedure of pre-shipment inspection. He said the people needed most are a professional engineer and a pilot, then an armament technician and avionics engineer. He listed the role of each of them and said if the last two were not there, an engineer and a pilot could do. He said inspection could be done anytime even in very bad winter weather because one can ask to have the aircraft put in their hangers. Asked whether the Chief of Logistics was necessary on the trip, Lutaaya said, "to me he has no work at all, may be he goes for public relations". Lutaaya also testified that the choppers must have original log-books which can only be replaced by the manufacturer after the old ones are filled. He said if any other person made the log-book, it is a forgery. When told that the ones that came with the helicopters were new and others were photocopies, Lutaaya said, "Then that is complete forgery and it is not allowed in aviation." He said the seller and those who did the last pre-shipment inspection take the responsibility or if the team was deceived, the seller takes responsibility. The commission adjourns to afternoon. Brig. Ali Kiiza, Col. Joshua Masaba and Capt. Peter Gaigulo join Lutaaya in the afternoon to continue their testimonies. Gaigulo, 38, the Airforce Chief Technical Officer, is introduced as a Mechanical Engineer, a graduate of Makerere University 1986, he also has certificates in aviation from Italy and South Africa and undertook several local courses at Entebbe. He heads technicians who maintain the aircraft and update the Commandant on their state on a daily basis. He also participates in repairs. Owor: Let us get back to Lutaaya. Tell the commission when the helicopters arrived in 1998. Lutaaya: They arrived on march 1, 1998, still in the hands of the sellers. They came in pieces and were assembled by those people and they test-flew them. After that, Dr. Mbonye contacted Col. Masaba, asking him to send him a list of what we had received, which Masaba did for both helicopters and armament. But the helicopters remained in the hands of these Russians. Ssebutinde: Are you saying up to today? Lutaaya: Until today, the Airforce has never received them. After about 25 days after arrival in Entebbe, a message from the Army headquarters was sent that they want the choppers immediately in the north for the operations, so Masaba told me to go and inspect these helicopters. I got the late Lt. Muwanga and we asked the Russian technicians to produce the log-books and on seeing them, I asked the technicians if these were the log-books they saw in Belarus. I told the Belarussians that these were not the log-books but they said those were the ones they were given. When I asked them if the helicopters were overhauled, they said they did not know. I then asked them to open the aircraft for inspection upon which I found that all the systems had never been replaced yet they were supposed to be there for six years. But some parts had stayed for over 12 years. Lutaaya said he found out that the main rotter blades were also supposed to be replaced and many other things. He said from this, he concluded that the helicopters were not overhauled and reported it Masaba who referred him to Maj. General Salim Saleh. Before he went to Saleh, he reported to Brig. Kiiza who also referred him to Saleh. He said Saleh called Emmanuel Katto and Kwame Ruyondo, the CSC representatives here, who insisted that the helicopters were overhauled and that they paid US$2m for the overhaul. He said Saleh tried to ring the President but failed to get him so he asked him to go and get a report of the serviceability of the aircraft. He said as he waited at night for the report from the Russians in Entebbe, Katto and Kwame stormed the house, harassed the Russians and snatched the report from them. He said after they left, he asked the Russians to write another report (he read the handwritten report to the commission) The report said the lives of the helicopters had only been extended for another one year from April 1, 1997 to April 1, 1998 and that it could fly another 100 hours. He later handed it to Saleh. Lutaaya explained that extension means the aircraft has not been overhauled and that although the hours are over, the craft was working, so they can add 50-100 hrs. Ssebutinde: So it is a mental assessment and not a mechanical extension? Lutaaya: yes, it is mental. you can extend but after even one hour, anything can happen. Ssebutinde: So in the extension time, there is no guarantee? Lutaaya: No guarantee. Ssebutinde: So the Russian experts are the ones who extended them for one hour? Lutaaya: Yes. Owor: So you gave the report to Saleh? Lutaaya: Yes, he nodded his head and said do not take over these helicopters until he (Saleh) comes back from out of the country. Before he came back, I was called by Dr. Mbonye to his office in Bombo who said the President wanted to know whether the helicopters were overhauled or not. I told him they were not overhauled. I advised him that the only thing to do was to send these things back to the manufacturers. I told him the log-books were forged. They were not the original ones. Mbonye told Masaba that we can't go with a one-man report. He told Masaba to go back and constitute a board of inquiry. Lutaaya said Masaba constituted a team comprising of him, Gaigulo, Lt Godfrey Wababa, Lt John Muwanga and the Belarussians who came with the plane. He said the team also concluded that the helicopters were not overhauled. They sent their report to Mbonye who was not "satisfied and happy". Mbonye called Brig Kiiza, Lt Col Noble Mayombo (the DMI chief), and some CAA officials who also came to the same findings. Lutaya said Mbonye was still not satisfied so he called in a South African group called Heyenes. He said Mbonye warned him against talking to Heyenes unless he got permission from either him or Emma Katto. He said the Heyenes group also found out that the helicopters were not overhauled. He said Mbonye was still not satisfied and so contacted other groups from the UK, Russia and Belarus who also confirmed that the aircraft were not overhauled. He said he began getting problems with Mbonye. He said Mbonye asked both Masaba and Kiiza to replace him. He said this led to his suspension from work on March 30, 1999 till he was cleared and reinstated by the Chief of Personnel and Administration (CPA) (Brigadier Steven Kashaka) on October 24, 2000. Col. Masaba admitted misleading the Secretary Ministry of Defence, Mrs Ochaya Lakidi, to believe that the airforce was involved in the test flights at Entebbe airbase. Masaba, Brig. Ali Kiiza and Capt. Peter Gaigulo could not explain to the commission why they did not tell the Ministry of Defence the truth. Hearing continues Ends

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